"Welcome to the Human Race."

12 thoughts

1. “I really like making the distinction between an outlaw hero and an antihero.”

   Still the most irritating thing you’ve ever said, Hian. I appreciate your sentiment, but it still seems more like a spectrum to me. On one end you have “hero,” then in the middle, “antihero” (which includes bad guys who are the protagonists of any story, by definition those stories’ “heroes”), and then “villian” on the other end.

   The term “hero” is so all-encompassing that “outlaw hero” (which, by your definition, is just about every protagonist of any story, ever), “mother hero,” “next-door neighbor’s retarded nephew hero,” or anything else you want to make up to describe heroes you like, are all just tiny, interchangeable pseudo-descriptions of any “good guy.” “Hero,” by far, has got to be the largest part of that spectrum for this reason.

   “Antihero,” on the other hand, has to be in the middle of this spectrum I made up (surely you can grant me this indulgence) because it’s murky. The bad guy protagonist is an antihero. If you read Raymond Chandler, the hardboiled detective is an antihero, because he’s consistently someone of terrible vice, such as severe alcohol or drug abuse, who’s cuckolded other men, shot and killed people for the profit of his shady job, set people up for money, and done all manner of other disreputable, illegal and immoral things, generally just for personal gain. He’s usually a terrible person. In real life, he’s a shining example of a “bad” guy. But he’s the protagonist, which makes him the hero, because we are made aware of his humanity, as well, and therefore, though he’s a “bad” guy, he’s the antihero.

   Han Solo is an antihero, because he shot first. A drug-running, murderous criminal who happens to join up with some rebels (initially just for cash) and end a greedy empire.

   So what’s an “outlaw hero?” Every single cop in any police film ever has to end up going outside the law to get the diplomatically-immune bad guy, so does that count? What Oskar Schindler did to get those people out of Poland was outside of Nazi law. Does he count? Those guys in Mentos commercials who find wacky ways to cross the street in stand-still traffic are technically jaywalking. What about them?

   Sorry to ramble. I get what you were trying to say with all that; I just strongly disagree with you calling a black & white hero like Indiana Jones your “outlaw hero,” because if you call him that, you might as well call any hero that. He’s a good guy. He’s not murdering people to further a scheme, like Yojimbo, or some amoral, criminal wastrel who decides to take a stand and do something right for once, like Chow Yun Fat in A Better Tomorrow.

   My point is, just about every single hero in literature, comics, movies, TV, etc. has different reasons, backgrounds, or whatever to propel them, and different circumstances around them forcing them to react, so making up names for any faction of hero, however massive as yours, is really a denigration of that hero’s individual motives, or his “herodom.” That’s why I feel there are simply either heroes, antiheroes, or bad guys.

   I guess I could have written that in shorter fashion. No response from you is needed. I get your point, and now you get mine. I was too busy looking a response up on wikipedia to say it at the time.

   I am, however, expecting a response from Seth, who will invariably demand that I have to watch Maniac Cop 3 and do a solo podcast of it.

2. Well have a 3rd grade reading level so i couldn’t get all the way through your comment, But I would suggest that you go see Made of Honor to see where that guy fits into your spectrum, plus it’s the first movie Ian has written and directed in quite a while. By the way I’m sorry Ian felt it appropriate to compare you to Diane from cheers.

3. Sam was always angrier than Diane, so that’s probably more fitting.

   Also, my wife is probably going to force me to see Made of Honor anyway, so I think I will review it for you. I’m assuming the Made of Honor guy is going to be an outlaw hero, since he’ll be operating on the outskirts of the wedding world.

4. Fantastic! Well next time maybe we should take your computer away from you so we can actually have this discussion/debate on the podcast. Anyway I think I did speak of it in terms of a spectrum and I’ll admit that like when classifying just about anything there can be contradictions, etc. (I know this from my studies in Biology). I think my basic point is that when talking about protagonists and their motivations it is possible to qualify them based on those motivations and then place that protagonist in a given category. But this is good we can return to this topic at some point hopefully on the air.

5. Good, I think Made of Honor is probably best at the theatre, the overall effect might get lost on the DVD.

6. You can classify anything as much as you want; that’s fine. But when you argue with someone that some character (that someone else invented) belongs to a category you invented, and not to another, that’s when it becomes questionable for me.

   me: “I think he’s a antihero.”

   you: “I really wish you would call him this thing I made up instead.”

   See what I mean? That was the only issue I had. I never had a problem with your right to decide to call a character something. I don’t think this has to be discussed again in a future podcast, because it’s probably very academic and boring to anyone other than us. The only issue (which is now hopefully dead) was you seeming miffed that I didn’t want to call a character the thing you made up.

   And yes, I will be seeing Made of Honor in the theater.

   Also, I saw one of the most gloriously bad movies I’ve ever seen today: 88 minutes. I highly recommend it to you and Seth.

7. Fair enough. I don’t think I so much made up the term as co-opted it from a paper I read comparing Old West protagonists to hardboiled detectives.

8. Money Train was an outlaw hero.

9. No Money Train was a dipshit. A gambling junkie that did it to himself. He was off the rails of the crazy train and he stole revenue from the people of the city he was sworn to protect 586K to be exactish. At best he was anti-hero rallying against the ruthless dictatorship of transit Captain Robert Blake.

10. What about Payback, he’s got to fit your outlaw hero thing that you made up. Also you should go see Made of Honor so that you can review it w/ Zack. Don’t do to him what he did to you w/ Money Train.

11. I still hate you guys so much. I’m coming over there to put a stop to this. Payback was a criminal he went away for doing crime he wanted what was due to him by a thieves code (honor among theives a system therfore not an outlaw from that system).

12. i think you should watch Money Train again, I have a feeling Zack is gonna be watching it soon anyway, you guys could watch it together.